- The Albany Law Review published a review of admission procedure at TJ. We have it. Here.
- We have the DATA used for this report Here.
- The Unpublished (presumably censored) TjToday Interview with Lloyd Cohen is here.
- NEW Domenech's response to the original paper is here.
- NEW Lloyd Cohen's response to Domenech published in the Albany Law Review (featuring previously unpublished information) here.
- NEW Op-Ed written by Lloyd Cohen in the Washington Times is here .
- NEW Actually really old DISCUSSION FORUM.
- If you wish to add your comments to the below discussion, scroll to the bottom of the page
Some people feel like this website should be put towards a better purpose. My challenge to you is to volunteer to run this site. This is meant to be a forum, but without proper moderation, and proper methods for communications this is a pretty useless site. So.. if you'd like to maintain this site let me know via the comments form.
Gracias
Being one of the rising freshman, and having freshly (sorry, bad pun) dealt with all the chaos and competition of the TJ Admissions Processs, I have to say that I think there is too much of a deal being made here. Many of my friends got in, many didn't. I am fortunate enough to come from a good school (Frost MS) where many students continue on to TJ. Even though there was depression and disappointment at first, many people are resigned and even cheerful that at least they now know which road they are taking. My friends and I have gotten over it. It's time to stop worrying about who got in and why, and start thinking about how to excell wherever one ends up. People at TJ aren't racist, they are trying to be fair. If culture and politics make a muddle of their goals, it's not their fault.
joy today4joy AT msn.com 2006-06-19
I think that people are making too big a deal about this. I am a black student at TJ and I believe that yes, checking black or hispanic on your application may raise your chance of acceptance. But it's not like they accept every black applicant. There are 10 "black" people in the my class and more than 10 definitely applied. I am friends with a few of them and we are all doing just as well as everyone else. This whole issue makes people think twice about miniorities at TJ and whether or not they reall deserve to be there. I know that other black students and I definitely deserve this as much as any one else because we all worked hard to get here and we're going to keep working hard jsut like everyone else. And I know that if any of the people protesting could justify being 1/8 black or hispanic...they would have checked off those boxes also...
anonymous anonymous.person AT fcps.edu 2006-06-16
Based on the last comment, I would say this site is basically dead. Good riddance. IF there is prefetial treatment towards minorities, there are still only 8 black people in my school, the only one I know personally being a genius. It's hard to make a case that minorities are being assisted based on the number that get in.
Ben Lash timberwolf323 AT cox.net 2006-05-31
I think the question of racial equality and performance in education, especially at FCPS, has to go beyond and before the tj selection process. The general GPA of white kids is generally better because they are expected. There are black kids that are absolutely amazing, their minds are so sharp and creative, and they have the potential to go amazingly far. Yet they are the ones stuck in math 8, instead of geometry or alg2, because throughout their childhood teachers have consistently encouraged good learning habits, but never enforced them, since they never really expected the kids to do it anyway. This isn’t racism; this is just a subtle and general mindset of American culture. It's the same expectations Asians generally have to be amazingly and dazzlingly smart. If anything is to be done about the racial minority issue, you have to go straight to the source, which is when kids are in early base school. Of course white kids in the well-funded big elementary schools are going to be more adept then kids from elementary and middle schools in areas dominated by black communities, because FCPS, parents, and the kids just assume that more money should be spent on schools where the money will profit most. It's a mindset based on generations relying on the previous generations experiences with life. That's why you have black women administrators proudly talking about their slave ancestors with students, it's as if they're saying, "Look, I come from this background, that means I'm an under-represented minority and you can't touch me". Of course, this is changing, but too gradually for people not to get frustrated and enraged about it. I've thought about this so much because two years ago I had the huge shock of moving back to Sweden where there is a completely socialistic mindset. The school I went to was in a rich suburb, unique because Stockholm, the capital city we were just outside of (where I was born and spent my childhood), where a huge proportion of citizens were from all over the world, because so many people seek asylum to Sweden. However, in this community, they had held on to their old way of living, and everyone was outstandingly rich (not me, unfortunately). The school I went to had literally 2 kids who didn’t have white skin, they were from India. There were no grades; the maths program was absolutely ridiculous. I was admonished because I was better then everyone at science, maths, and english. This school was a showcase of Sweden’s old socialistic ways, with the Jante Lagen (a proverbial Jim Crow law; Don’t think you’re anything because you’re better then average) in full swing. The people there were never expected to do anything, so nearly everyone who graduated there became dropouts. The authorities were clueless as to what caused this. Regardless to say, I got a big reality check about the qualities of a sound education that encouraged a "Reach for the Stars" theme. Thank god I moved back. Anyway, the point is, people will generally do what is expected of them. Part of the reason TJ loves accepting minorities is because it shows that these kids are not afraid of breaking social boundaries. America holds true potential for true equality for every person; however, each person has to be able to decide to excel for themselves; without any expectations from their heritage's history. This ideal can never be fully reached, but as long as there are people fighting for it, there will be hope for the world as a community.
Aline, rising tj freshman nevonly at yahoo.com 2006-05-24
As a whole, i disagree with the whole affirmitive action thing. Sure, diversity and quality educations are good, but they can only be introduced when the people are ready for change. With affirmitave action, people who aren't ready for tougher courses get in anyway, and end up doing poorly and end up hurting their lives. It's like sending someone who is not ready to fight in a war into the battlefield. all they will be doing is getting themselves killed. the only real way to prevent this is to train them long enough and hard enough until they're ready to fight. the same goes for education, as you need to learn basic essential knowledge before you get into more advanced stuff. usually, it is the fault of the elementary schools and middle schools which fail to educate students adequately, rather than the race of the student qhich decides academic excellence. The "No Child Left Behind Act" targets these underperforming and poor schools, which is the real source of the problem at hand (I commend you MR.Bush). Generally speaking, the admittance board is assuming that the minorities are coming from these schools. They're trying to break social inequality, but in the way they're doing it, it's like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound to the torso. The only real thing these people are missing is that the problem will take genrations to fix up properly, which is not too long in comparison to how long it took for the problem to form. well here is my stand on the budjet issue. In this " fair and equal" society, they are trying to give everyone a "fair and equal" chance of a good education. Because of this, they are trying to evenly distribute money amongst schools and neighborhoods. however, in a competitive place like TJ, only the exceptional students will get in. If the county were to pool more money into TJ to get it new supplies and such from schools that would need the money, and therefore only exceptional students would get good educations, while the other "average" schools would wither away into poverty and cime (in their point of view). because of this, they try to make it so that average schools would be average, even if it means lowering educational possibilities. If this keeps up, TJ will just be another overcrowded school that you have to apply to, and won't have anything special about it except the prestige that comes with going there. well thats my rant. i hope you could see what i was trying to say. I am asian by the way, so i can understand a little bit of what being a minority is like.
anonymous tu-an AT cox.net 2006-03-20
the main problem in today's society is where we grow up and are raised. The educational department is saying that most minorities come from bad neiborhoods, while white people are usually more wealthy. however, with this assumption they are saying that blacks are usually dumber that white people (NO OFFENCE MEANT THERE), when the place they live in is to blame. Because of this, i think that focusing on areasis much more important than focusing on the people. The no child left behind act does exactly that, so i really think it's wrong to have affirmitive action.
anonymous anonymous 2006-03-19
i dunno. i'm black and i go to tj. it's a lot of work and i know my race has nothing to do with anything... not with how smart i am or how i handle the work i have to do. sure i've had really good opportunities along the way and am more priveledged in a lot of ways (and i'm greatful), but it really doesn't make a difference about affirmative action or what not.. because no matter who "deserves" to go to tj, all that really matters is if you WANT to be there and if you're willing and able to keep up. Race has nothing to do with it. Besides, our school is getting so weird lately that... well... there's a lot of hype about tj.
tj 08 2006-01-17
Here at TJ we have an honor code. This honor code encourages all students to "honor personal and academic integrity" and "uphold the values of honesty, integrity, respect, and responsibility." To base student admissions policies on anything other than a student's academic qualifications is dishonest, a violation of the school's academic integrity, irresponsible of FCPS administration, and disrespectful of the intelligence and dedication of TJ applicants.
stebby astebbin ATZORS tjhsst DOTZORS edu 2005-12-06
I feel that too many people believe the diversity "problem" at tj can be fixed by adjusting the admissions process. The real issue is that no one is focusing on the actual problem, the admissions process was fair at one point. We shouldn't consider someone's ethnicity when determining acceptance, we should focus on how that particular student would perform at tj. If everyone thinks that tj needs more minority students, why don't they start helping kids when they're in elementary school? A child can't become smart in one year. It takes time, good teachers, years of challenging courses at school, supportive parents, and a school system that focuses on the children, not a bunch of numbers!
Hispanic TJ Junior 2005-08-12
they really messed up the admin. process this year, the test was way to easy and some people that should've gotten in didn't and some people that did get in shouldn't have. Using our ethnicity is a bad idea because aren't we always taught no matter what we look like, or who are ancestors were, it's who we make ourselves to be that's improtant? frankly i wish they didn't even look at what race you are, they only look at your scores and reccomendations.
Rising Frosh 2005-08-11
I have to say that this racial thing is a non-sense. I mean people deserved to go to that school because of their effort. And I think it's not fair to those who studied their butt off for the admission. this "ohh we have to let more hispanics in or blacks" is upsurd. if those people want to get in so bad, well then study!! I have to say that it's not that easy. I'm preparing my self to get that ticket. If any can offer me any advice..........
Tanya 2005-08-09
....... I am one of the few native americans who was accepted into tj and i am looking forward to a great year. The problem for me is that people have been saying that I only got in because of my race. In truth I actually out performed them on the test and in school. I believe that the admissions system is perfectly fair and should not be a point to argue over.......... well anyway c ya. -oh, and, rising freshmens rule!-
rising freshman rule 05' none 2005-08-04
I was the only person that got in to TJ from my school. I was slightly sad since i wouldn't have any of my friends going wiht me but then again I was also so overwhelmed with the thought that i actually had made it. However, once the other testies found out that they hadn't got in they started saying stuff like i had only been selected because i was a girl and they needed to achieve their quota. And all i'm gonna say to that is that I hope that reason is a complete myth because if it were true...let's just say i would be disappointed with my self as well as the people who actually came up with that stupid reason!
gloria gloria.driessnack AT comcast.net 2005-07-25
I think the entire new policy is unnecessary. As a black student at TJ myself, I think that it was wrong of the school board to expect that if you let the next 50 people in they would all be minorities- whats the guarantee that they won't all be white? I think the admissions policy at TJ is just fine as it is- though i would naturally like to see more black students at TJ, i refuse to sacrifice the reputation of our school just to say that we are more diverse. I think it affects both the school and the student negatively when he or she feels or knows they are there simply because of the color of their skin- the county is alos setting the kid up for failure!
TJ minority freshman professorwill90 AT yahoo.com 2005-05-30
I think that the only way that the School Board can eliminate the accusations of racism and discrimination it too eliminate race from the selection process. For example, each applicant could be assigned a number, and their name is never released until the 500 are chosen. Now, someone may accuse me of being biased because I'm already accepted and because I'm white, but I think that affirmative action is the wors tthing to happen to TJ admissions ever. If you aren't smart enough to get in, hten you shouldn't be in - no offense to anyone who didn't got in, but seriously, the whole point of admissions is to pick the smartest.
TJ Freshman 2005-05-23
OK, although I am hispanic, which I clearly stated in my application, and my native language is spanish, which I also stated in my application, I was accepted, not because of my race, but because of what I've accomplished. If I hadn't been accepted, would I think the process is racist? No. Is it racist? Probably. I dunno. But whatever you think, people are always going to be "racist", because people make assuptions, no matter who they are. I don't know if its racist or not, and I don't really care. And no, I don't care because I got in, I don't care because you can't really change it unless you fight for years, and me? I'm too lazy to eat anyhting but cereal in the morning. So there you go.
Kevin ryter221 AT gmail.com 2005-05-16
Hey I'm a freshmen at Jefferson and i think this new admissions policy is the worst thing EVER. For all the people who aren't students at tj, let me tell you whats been going on. They have started moving "learning cottages" into our school. At first the estimation was that we would only need 13, but since then that number has been changed to 22. Many parking spaces (both student and teachers) were completely wiped out. Students were forced to park on a gravel road near the track. Many were pissed off and administration was very much blamed for the mess. The fact is, we're eventually not going to have enough parking spaces for even all the seniors. This really sucks for everyone because most people live very far from tj. Also, people haven't thought of the other implications for letting more students in. It already takes a half hour to buy lunch in the crowded cafeteria. Imagine if you dump more students in there. Our gym is already packed during spirit rallys. Imagine if some kids had to be excluded simply because they can't get in. Look, i've talked to other kids at chantilly and westfield, and they agree our building is falling apart. The bearucrats on the FCPS school board obviously don't see that. Oh well, at least i got in the good way :)
Rus rpg3132 AT hotmail 2005-05-15
i am an applicant for tjhsst and i believe i didnit recieve any help b/c i'm spanish. I worked my ass off and am not a retard or poor, i believe affirmative action is racist beyond the point of sanity. I strongly think if you can't get in this school b/c you aren't smat enough then u should deal with it!
frankie m mini_roller AT yahoo.com 2005-02-19
Personally, I really don't like the idea of so many TJ admissions test prep courses. If you're not smart enough to get in on your own, you'll be miserable at TJ. The stress and pressures are great enough as is. The same is true for a minority who only gets in because of affirmative action. TJ is such a challenging and competitive environment that it would actually be more detrimental than beneficial to individuals who attend but didn't deserve to.
TJ Junior 2004-11-25
This here is an exelent example of racial profiling, if the lack of divercity is only a problem with the parents why does it matter? They are overcompensating for a problem that was probebly much worse back whn they were in school. If someone deserves to go to Tj then thats that, and take all those kids into an evironment where they cant really thrive as students and puched to their limits academically, if a student is going to struggle there because he/she was only put there to make the school diverse then they are going to get nowhere, and they will be taking the place of a student who is at a base school sleeping through class and getting all A's. Leave the decisions up to us, if a student complained that he/she REALLY wanted to go to Tj, REALLY worked forr it, and checked her results to see that she was actually more academically suited to be there then someone who got in, then THEy can complain, write letters, whatever. I dont know, i just think this whole thing is wrong and that parents should accepts if their students would be better suited for base schools.
An outsider anonymouse 2004-08-20
For person who said that the TJ freshmen class should be 800 instead of 420. You obviously did not attend TJ because had you done so there would be absolutely no way that such a suggestion would be posted. For being a science and technology school, TJ is severely limited in resources and facilities. Only recently have the computers been upgraded to ones that do not take 10 minutes to load. The printers have yet to be upgraded. Adding another 400 per class simply could not be done. The building is already so small that there is no room to stop and talk to people in the hall. The idea of shoving 1600 more people into the already overcrowded building is completed insane.
anonymous 2004-08-19
I've been leading a group of TJ alums in letter writing regarding the Blue Ribbon Commission. If you would like to write to the board or learn more about what we've been doing visit: www.andrew.cmu.edu/~rcomes/TJAdmissions.html
Ryan Comes rcomes AT cox.net 2004-07-25
This whole mess is being foisted on this community by FCPS staff. Yet every time I look, the racial composition of the leadership team hardly reflects the demographics of the county. I want to know which half of the leadership team will immediately resign their positions so others who certainly has the same interest and passion for doing their job, but just didn't make it through the selection criteria, and are severely under represented on the team, can have the same opportunities that the current team members enjoy. The strikingly low number of African Americans and Hispanics on the Leadership Team substantially limits the work experience of the entire FCPS community. (Source: Same as the Blue Ribbon panel) The only valid conclusion is that there must be a faulty or inferior selection process for these postions.
:0 :0 2004-07-22
The discussion here seems to have shifted to socioeconomic affirmative action, which is what I will address. The problem as presented is now this: that poorer students in FCPS are underperforming academically, as evidenced by the lack of blacks and hispanics admitted into TJ. The solution thus far has been to make it easier for certain poorer areas to send students to TJ. First of all, using TJ admissions data, specifically, minority acceptance percentages, presupposes that all minorities are poor. As a former student, I can assure you that this is not the case. From the blacks and Hispanics I have known at TJ, most are generally in the middle of the socioeconomic pack for NOVA residents. But of course, none of us have any socioeconomic data about across races among TJ families. I speak from unscientific observation, but my main point is that none of us are qualified to speak on this point at all. There have been no numbers about race and income at TJ, so using racial distributions at TJ to conclude anything about how to target poorer families is presumptuous at best. Furthermore, assigning each area middle school a certain number of seats for admittance (as the current plan does) is an incredibly crude way of at once sorting out the best and brightest while encouraging equal opportunity across socioeconomic boundaries. Longfellow, formerly the best represented middle school at TJ (something around 90/400 per class) now has around 15 seats. The questions to examine in this example are 1. Why Longfellow had such a strong representation before, and 2. Does the quota effectively target and exclude students who are of an equal intellectual level to poorer students, but because of going to an affluent middle school, have an easier time getting in. Many suggest that the answer to 1 is because the families of Longfellow are richer. What is it, I wonder, about a bigger house, nicer cars, and other luxuries that produce smarter children? Spoiled children, as is likely, but smarter? The only answer with any plausibility is that the money in the area has provided the middle school with better teachers, equipment, and opportunities than a poorer middle school. I do not doubt this, but I wonder if this is the deciding factor. I believe the answer lies within family influences. The key premise is simply that more educated people make more money. If you doubt this intuitive truth, try taking your child out of school and see how far he gets. This premise can be turned around and say, richer people are most likely more educated with good plausibility. People who can afford to live near Longfellow are generally very well-to-do, which implies that they are better educated than those who are not as well-to-do. The types of people who live there are Congressmen, business leaders, respected surgeons, etc. These are people who have seen and taken advantage of the value of education and diligence, and presumably pass on and enforce such values in their children. I do not doubt that better teachers and equipment do contribute to the educational experience, to deny that would be absurd. However, compare the following cases: 1. teachers are willing and capable to teach children hard concepts but children are disinterested and unmotivated, versus, 2. teachers are underpaid and lack motivation to make every student understand, but children are interested and motivated (whether by self-motivation or by parental motivation). In case 1 it is clear that although a teacher is very capable, without willing students he/she will not be able to produce many TJ-level students. In case 2, however, when students are motivated to learn and make good grades, mediocre teaching will not hinder determination. I argue that the children in the Longfellow area are of the sort in case 2, while in poorer areas, because their families place less of an emphasis on education, are more susceptible to becoming the students in case 1. Those who doubt that family influence can be the decisive factor have only to compare the academic performance of the Asian community with that of the Hispanic community. Both are immigrants, yet Asians do not lack TJ representation (or college representation, for that matter). The only substantive difference here is that Asian families traditionally emphasize education and intelligence above all else. This, I believe, is a sufficient explanation of Longfellow’s previous “overrepresentation” at TJ. The second question, whether the quotas successfully discriminate which students to exclude, can be answered from the first. As I have argued, the students at Longfellow generally come from families that place premiums on education, which suggests that the reason poorer areas are underrepresented is because of a lack of emphasis on intelligence. Having come from such a middle school, I can certainly attest (at the expense of sounding like a geezer) to a culture among students which looks down upon intellectual achievement. Students there have little incentive to work hard; their parents do not reinforce diligence diligently and their friends may label them geeks. The current quota distribution, where “overrepresented” middle schools are given meager numbers of seats, wrongfully excludes many competitive students while accepting some mediocre students. The students at underachieving middle schools are of course victims of circumstance, but the solution will never be to impose quotas of any sort for TJ admissions. Even if you reject my analysis on why the previous admissions criteria did in fact admit the best and brightest students, the solution still would not be to lower admissions standards in any way. Let us be clear that to allow any non-merit based circumstantial criteria to be used is to lower expectations for students of that circumstance. Here is the guideline for TJ admissions staff concerning minority test scores: “Standardized testing for minority students does not necessarily reflect their abilities. The scores may be depressed. If test scores are low, then determine judgments from other indicators of success (grades, teacher recommendations, writing, and activities).” Replace the word “minority” with “economically challenged” and this now applies to socioeconomic affirmative action. How may their scores be depressed? Is it some bias of the exam? Does it ask questions that minorities should not be responsible for? And what is the point of making them test at all if it is not to be compared to other students’ test scores, if when “test scores are low,” disregard them and only look at other criteria? It is certainly clear here that these students are not held to the same standards as non-minority or well-to-do students. I ask you defenders of affirmative action, how does lowering expectations help poor or minority students raise their performance to match the TJ standard? Furthermore, how do socioeconomic quotas for seats in TJ help those communities as a whole? At most 100-200 poorer students will benefit by matriculating. What about the thousands of other poor students who are still in the base school system that is being blamed for all this? Would not the reasonable course of action, one that actually seeks to solve the problem of underachievement, be to first address how poorer elementary and middle schools prepare their children? TJ admissions should be used as a barometer for their achievement, not a means to solve the actual problem. Real solutions have given way to political expediency. The current admissions criteria has lowered TJ standards, wrongfully excluded many of the best students of the nation, and come no closer to actually improving student performance. Address the real problem at the elementary and middle school level, and most importantly at the parental education level. Do not use a morally flawed and inefficacious quota system for TJ admissions.
tj grad anonymous 2004-05-22
People really do not get it. I cannot believe that in this day and age ignorance is the call of the day. Many of you talk about merit as if you somehow truly earned a place at TJ. None of you got there without help. For some it has been because you went to better schools paid for by a tax system which perpetuates the social and financial inequality that is the basis of our society. Do you really thing that all students have the same education no matter where they go to school? Do you really think that the only reason they are not at TJ is because they do not work hard enough to get there? The students who make it to TJ, whether they are black, white, Asian or Hispanic are all gifted overachievers. The difference is that the minorites who make it to TJ have done so against overwhelming odds. Some come from schools where teachers are not certified, books are outdated and better facilities and academic educational tools can be found in developing countries. Of course, many of you do not want to acknowledge this or believe that it has anything to do with the quality of one's education. In addition to this, every day of their lives these students live in a society of racist individuals who tell them that no matter what they do or what they accomplish it is not because of their talents or intellectual abilities, but because some white person's place was taken. The assumption that the 12-20 black and hispanic students that made it into TJ were somehow less intelligent that the whites, is only wishful Hitler-like thinking. I applaud the student who pointed out the growing number of Asian and Middle Eastern student at TJ. Hispanics are now the fastest growing population in the US. The tide is turning and soon you will walk in our shoes.
Tori tori10asee AT cox.net 2004-04-14
I don't understand the narrowmindedness of some of the arguments here. This is a prime example: "...a lot of minorities who could do very well at TJ def. slip through the cracks because, as i said earlier, they don't (like many whites and asians) have the $$ to invest into education, or they dont have a home situation where parents are pressuring them to do well, or arent afforded any opportunity to pursue academic interests beyond the meager support their school may supply..." ->I find this VERY insulting to Asian minorities. First, you imply that they're not a real minority when you say that, "a lot of minorities...slip through the crakcs because, as i said earlier, they don't (like many whites and asians) have the $$ to invest into education..." Wake up, there are a lot of poor Asians and they have also faced much of the same discrimination as Blacks have. I'd also like to add that there are A LOT of people who "slip through the cracks" who are probably qualified to go to TJ. It's the nature of something competitive to be...well...competitive. Then she goes on to say: "im a blck student at a private school in Alexandria...I applied to TJ but didnt get in...i find these epithets of 'less qualified' versus 'more deserving', very amusing....a test, recommendations or however they do it now is a difficult way to measure someone's "perseverance" or ability to 'succeed'." ->Now wait a second. She then goes on to say that she attends a private school. Obviously your parents CAN afford to pay for a better education. I, for one, am not Black and would have gone to a regular, old "base school" had I not gotten in to TJ. I do see how, generally, Blacks have less money than whites though. I would also like to note that the statement, "i find these epithets of 'less qualified' versus 'more deserving', very amusing....a test, recommendations or however they do it now is a difficult way to measure someone's "perseverance" or ability to 'succeed'" applies to Blacks as well as everyone else, so what's the problem? We all know that you can't really make a complete analysis of ANYONE based on a test and some reccomendations... All of this debate leads me to ask: WHY CAN'T WE BASE THE NEW ADMISSIONS POLICY ON INCOME? I mean, I think that any preferential treatment of a target group is discriminatory, but this seems like the best way to do it. Minorities (and NOT just Blacks) tend to make less money than Whites, so this would be the same thing. I, however, have a big problem with doing it based on race or zip code because it would be too easy for a wealthy minority student to take advantage of a system set up to help the LESS priviledged. Think of it this way; if you look solely at race, the children of say, Michael Jordan, would get an extra boost over the children of a blue-collar White worker. This is an extreme example, but I'm just using it to illustrate a point. In addition, I'd like to note that the purpose of affirmative action was to eliminate disparity between Whites and minorities. There is nothing inherintly unfair or biased against minorities in the TJ application process. An admissions policy that does give preference to minorities goes completely against the whole point of affirmative action.
Anonymous Anonymous 2004-02-22
Most of us don't agree that an affirmative action program or of that type should be set in place, yet others argue that the minorities (basically African-Americans and Hispanics) are starting off with a worse chance of succeeding than others are. You could say that we have an advantage, but, that is not our fault. Are we supposed to equal this out by giving those minorities an "up" on the other races? One does not succeed in life without any effort, in my opinion. If you want to succeed in life, make it so. Hopefully, your children will do so also, and this will continue on. IF that were to occur, there is no difference between that family and a "white" family right now that has a student attending TJ, no? Just because one is rich does not mean they can not achieve their dreams, and I think that reason is plain stupid (no offense). We should focus more on how to encourage these minorities to join TJ, instead of giving them advantages in getting into TJ. "I set the microwave on fire, which trigged the fire alarm." "It's on top of a hill." Can't think of anymore quotes, but, this is the person running our school. Not suggesting or pointing out any bad qualities, just... yeah, FYI.
200X Attendee ???? 2004-01-26
Today, Thursday December 18, the FCPS School Board is going to vote on a resolution about the TJ admissions process. The full text of the resolution can be found linked from the TJ website, but in brief: they are going to consider changing from a top 800 pool to a minimum cut score. Thoughts?
Sneha, TJ Class of 2003 Writer1985 AT yahoo.com 2003-12-18
Why does this have to be about race? The argument that poorer students (e.g. those on free or reduced price lunch) have a more difficult time throughout school is a perfectly valid one, and those students' hard work should be rewarded. However, extending socioeconomic affirmative action to race-based affirmative action is fallacious. Ironically enough, affirmative action as we have it today is racist: it assumes that ALL African American and Hispanic families are poor and uneducated. Race-based affirmative action sends a powerful hidden message about the stereotypes in our society, and until we can escape from those stereotypes, affirmative action is meaningless. The idea that African Americans and Hispanics must be from lower-class backgrounds and therefore require a boost in competitive admissions, the idea that one candidate would be preferred over another solely on the basis of skin color, is repulsive and racist. So then why does everyone, from Dr. Cohen to the TJ admissions office to the Supreme Court, focus on racial affirmative action? Because it's the "easy way out." Race is one of the most obvious identifying characteristics of a person; it's certainly far more apparent at first glance than parental income or education level. TJ does need a bit more diversity, but we have to ask ourselves what sort of diversity we're looking for. Is a by-the-numbers racial stance the way to go? Or is a less superficial, intellectual diversity, centered around the socioeconomic status of the students, more fulfilling and educating?
Sneha Mantri Writer1985 AT yahoo.com 2003-12-16
OK Daniela, first of all, the "rat race" is defined (by Merriam-Webster) as a "strenuous, wearisome, and usually competitive activity or rush;" apparently you seem to have used the term out of context. Regardless, I would say that the winner of such a competitive activity would be those with the greatest "personal merit, work-ethic and intelligence," contrary to your assertion. And just for the record, I went to Fairfax County Public Schools from kindergarten through my graduation from TJ. I did not go to one of the "top-notch primary schools" to which you refer, nor is my family particularly "privileged." Not all smart white kids are rich. Sorry to disappoint you. Back to the general topic--much of this debate seems to revolve around the assertion that minorities can succeed at TJ even if their test scores and grades are lower than the white kids whose spots they took. I am not contesting this point; I would agree that the other 400 kids who aren't admitted out of the pool of 800 would also all be capable of succeeding at TJ, regardless of their race. However, it is my very strong opinion that admissions to TJ are not only about selecting students who can succeed there, but also (and I think more importantly) selecting those who are most able to take advantage of and benefit from the incredible opportunities TJ offers its students. Otherwise, why does TJ exist? What would make it special? Its programs would suffer--yes, its students would succeed, but they would not be taking full advantages of the opportunities provided, and as a result, one by one, the opportunities would disappear, and along with them TJ's reputation, funding, and eventually TJ itself. TJ admissions must be race-blind to ensure that TJ students take full advantage of its resources and keep TJ at the top where it belongs. Finally, and on a more personal note addressed to everyone, do not ever try to make me feel guilty because I am white. My race is no more my fault than yours. My ancestors came here and worked their asses off just as hard as anyone else's, trying to provide a living for their family and opportunities for their future generations. And you know what? Look what happened. Through education and hard work they succeeded. Not because they tried to get around the system. Not because they tried to make someone more "privileged" take pity on them to get an advantage. My family didn't have the race card to play. My umpteen-greats-grandfather came from Germany as an indentured servant, served out his indenture, moved to Wisconsin and started a small farm in the 1830s. My grandfather grew up working on that farm (this was a small family farm mind you, not some corporate conglomerate), but managed to get to college and begin moving up. Did some admissions curve for underprivileged farmers help him? No. He earned it on his own. 50 years later his grandson (me) finally had the opportunity to go to TJ, and I am very grateful for it. I fully recognize that my opportunity to go to TJ was the result of 160 years of perseverance and hard work by my family. I didn't get in because my parents are wealthy. They aren't. I got in because my family taught me the value of hard work and education. Despite an admissions curve that apparently works against me, I got in and I graduated. I'd like to think I took damn near maximum advantage of the resources and opportunities at TJ, and I was lucky enough to be rewarded with admission to an amazing University, once again, despite an admissions curve that worked against me. And my family and I are very, very proud of that. I'm not writing this to brag. I'm writing because I will not put up with reverse discrimination, and I will not put up with being told that I somehow haven't earned everything I've accomplished. Because I have, and I'm proud of it. Whites are not more deserving of admissions to TJ than students of any other race. That is an absurd generalization, as is saying that students of any other race are more deserving than whites. However, it is possible to distinguish from test scores, essays, grades, and perhaps some other yet-undiscovered form of intellectual assessment that an individual student, regardless of his race, is more deserving than another individual student. That is why TJ admissions must be race blind: since no race is more deserving of admission to TJ, race must not be a factor in the admissions process.
Evan Crawford, TJ '02, Yale '06 evan.crawford AT yale.edu 2003-12-14
I am currently an eighth grader who is talking the test on Saturday. I am appaled by this process, though I knew something of the sort was going on. I have been in a program since sixth grade for black and hispanic students to prepare us for the test in hopes to boost numbers. I would like to go to TJ, but not because I am hispanic. I want to get in fairly.
Chelsea Crva2000 AT aol.com 2003-12-10
yeah. so no race discrimination guys. we have a diverse school - of ideas. is color really an issue? do we have to lower our standards so that other minorities can get in? no. we dont. and i sure hope we ever do. i mean ppl can be like, oh this school only recruited 2 blacks. but hey, if thats all there was that made the cut, so be it. we have programs to tutur young minorities so that they might have an interest in coming to tj. we can only hope that it'll pay off in the end.
Jennifer jenniferthe18 AT yahoo.com 2003-11-17
"It is absurd to think that someone who has received a lesser primary education (through no fault of one’s own) will be able to compete within an academically competitive environment such as that which exists within TJ with someone who has received a top-notch primary education" ??? that seems a highly discriminatory statement. You're really trying to tell me that TJHSST is composed only of students who come from top-notch primary schools. That's really suscribing into the "rat race". So its not a matter of personal merit, of work-ethic and of intelligence??? It's really about formatting(and though hardly a uniquely nVA concept it's certainly one many "priviledged" families in this area suscribe to) a resume of the "right" schools, the "right" activities and the "right" extra-curricular academic programs that guarantee to give you some sort of academic advantage over others. oh please, there are plenty of people who come from crappy schools that could succeed and do extremely well at TJ. Not by means of their "inferior schooling" no doubt, but by their desire to succeed, by a willingness to work hard etc. That's why minority quotas are important. It's losing the snooty, elitist air and actually giving people a chance. In response to the last comment: "If you wanna get stereotypical about it, Asians and Middle Eastern young adults are smarter or at least more likely to push themselves to be the best they can be, than whites, hispanics, blacks, etc... If you WENT to TJ, you would've noticed that, without quotas or anything of that nature, there was an unusually high percentage of Asian/Middle Eastern peoples. " wow, im not asking yall to be pc but the racism surprises me....im not bout to launch into a whole history of minorities in america but i think its obvious that more whites and asians have the financial resources to invest into their education.... lastly, whoever said that "Thomas Jefferson is obviously NOT a perfect (or even near close) "accurate representation of the intellectual community" i think it would be pretty dumb to assume blindly that it is... my sister, a blck student, graduated from TJ in 1999. shell be graduating from college this may w/ a mechanical engineering degree and intends to pursue graduate studies in a biomed subset of her field. She didn't come from any sort of GT school or whatever. unlike her, a lot of minorities who could do very well at TJ def. slip through the cracks because, as i said earlier, they don't (like many whites and asians) have the $$ to invest into education, or they dont have a home situation where parents are pressuring them to do well, or arent afforded any opportunity to pursue academic interests beyond the meager support their school may supply im a blck student at a private school in Alexandria...I applied to TJ but didnt get in...i find these epithets of "less qualified" versus "more deserving", very amusing....a test, recommendations or however they do it now is a difficult way to measure someone's "perseverance" or ability to "succeed". but whateva. maybe TJ will change, maybe it wont. i think an even bigger step would be if the elitist attitudes of SOME (not all, but def. some) of its students changed first. -out-
daniela 4jwilli AT episcopalhighschool.org 2003-11-05
I think that there should be way more people entering the school than 420. It should be about 800 for the freshman class.
anyomonous 2003-11-04
I think Dr. Cohen has done great public service in bringing up the issues of admissions and all that goes with it - selectivity, standardized testing, aptitude, performance, discrimination etc. etc. I find the data on 2006 fascinating. It shows who the winners are and where they were in the pile. It shows that gender does play a role - girls and boys perform differently on the test - introducing an inherent bias. It shows that there are some kids who inspite of their low verbal scores do well in GPA terms. Could this be some disadvantage due to environmental factors that can be overcome. It shows the four clear losers who lost for some unknown reason; and those "American-Indians" who lost out for some otherstrange reason. Also the geographic spin that was introduced has had material impact on feeder schools like Longfellow - who seemed to have been constrained. The TJ management should have used the opportunity to debate these issues in public - the students would have gained from a live democratic debate. Instead they chose to stifle. In a democratic system - this alone should require a call for change. Hence it is time to look for new leadership... and let us make sure that it is done right this time --- i.e in an open manner. With all the brouhaha around admissions in general in schools and colleges, here some more things a potential applicant to TJ may consider: * College admissiona are even more subjective where legacy, sports and arbitrary non-academic criteria will affect outcome for the most selective colleges. * Admission to TJ does not guarantee anything other than the Jefferson Diploma - Colleges do not supersize the extra effort required to get to the same level at a regular private and public school. * In spite of all the academic success the TJ has had in the National Merit, private schools feed the most selective Ivys at a higher rate. TJ stands a dismal 75. North East/NY/NJ private and public schools do much better. * If you are not in the top two quartiles and TJ admission list you may be at a disadvantage during the college process. Some TJ kids did not get admitted anywhere - a mismatch of expectations (about TJ)that were not fulfilled. * The minority experience for college admissions is even more scary - minority admission at selective colleges seem to suggest that while the underrepresented do get a boost as the colleges seek them out - the well represented minorities (i.e Asians) are competing for a smaller number of seats within there highly performing cohort. For more details - see www.asianam.org.
Thomas Jefferson TJ AT charlottesville.com 2003-10-31
The fact of the matter is, tests as a whole are a very poor indicator of both intelligence and work ethic. As long as the test is such an intricate part of the TJ admissions process, factors such as race must be considered in admissions. For example, it has been shown in study after study that African American students of EQUAL intelligence do WORSE on standardized tests than their white colleagues. More importantly, though, leaving race as a factor allows us to get a better picture of the student applying. Although it's a grave injustice when a minority student is given a slot over a majority student who is BLATANTLY more qualified, things are generally not as (for lack of a better term) black and white as that. When a minority student is chosen over a majority student because of affirmative action or the like, the difference between them is usually so miniscule that it's barely noticeable. This is when extra factors must come into play, such as the fact that most minorities have more to overcome to achieve what they achieve, and so often the minority student with a 3.6 GPA is actually a harder-working, higher-achieving, more intellignet student than the majority student with the 3.7 GPA. Which also gets to GPA. The grading systems across Fairfax County Middle Schools are VASTLY different, and as a result, GPA is a very POOR indicator of performance at TJ. My middle school GPA, for example, was substantially lower than my TJ GPA. For many of my friends, I know the exact opposite was true. So, the fact of the matter is, as long as test scores and GPA remain such crucial parts of the admissions process, so too must race, and other factors that give us a better picture of the applicant. Now, don't misunderstand me, I don't advocate this system in the least. The system I speak of is, to me, the least desirable. As far as I'm concerned, the test and middle school GPA should have their role severely limited in the application process, and the 800 cut should be eliminated. Instead, a focus on teacher recommendations, the student data sheets, and the essays (perhaps allowing more time for the essays than just an hour after the test) would be a much more accurate look at the students applying... especially now that so many middle school students are resorting to TJ Test Prep classes. The fact is, the system I speak of above would have no need to have race considered as a factor, as a much more complete picture of the students applying would be received by the admissions committees. I can think off the top of my head of three sophomore replacements (and i know there were more) that i became friends with during my time at TJ who got rejected primarily because of bad test scores (two of them, for example, did not make the first cut), but were accepted in the much more subjective sophomore replacement program. These three students have 4.0+ GPAs at TJ... far better than my 3.7, and I got in primarily because of my 99th and 96th percentile test scores... I will not accept that I belonged at TJ more than they did, because of a test. So, simply put, as long as the system remains the way it is, race must be a factor in the application process. But, should the system change, as I'd hope it would, there would no longer be a need to include race at all.
Sam Leven, TJ '03, UVA '07 2003-10-26
I am absolutely incensed that anyone would even dare to suggest that diversity at the expense of merit is a good thing. It’s bad enough that private institutions of higher learning are allowed to so blatantly violate 14th amendment protections; public high schools certainly shouldn’t be forced to. So-called “diversity” is not what makes Jefferson special; what makes TJ special is the innate intelligence and drive to learn which its students possess. I would also like to address the point made by “92 grad” on April 4, 2003, asking, “Who says the line has to be drawn at the TJ admissions process?” Let’s step back and think about this question for a moment. At that rate, why not ask, “Who says the line has to be drawn at the Ivy League admissions process?” (whether or not the line is even drawn there any more is, in my opinion, open to debate, but that’s a subject for that editorial I keep forgetting to write for the Yale Daily News), or why not ask “Who says the line has to be drawn at the job application process for pharmacists?” I, for one, would prefer not to have my prescriptions filled by an under-qualified minority just because their skin was a different color from the Hopkins Med School graduate who happened to be Caucasian. Perhaps this example is a bit extreme, but it suffices to illustrate the point that a line of merit and qualification has to be drawn whenever there is an application process. The best analogy I can think of for this situation is treating the symptoms but not the cause: The plan to “help” minorities by lowering the bar for their admission into an institution such as TJ is just as helpful as taking a painkiller when you break your arm. Sure, it will make the situation seem better, for a while, until you realize that the true problem hasn’t gone away: we need to improve primary education, especially of minorities, before we can improve secondary education. It is absurd to think that someone who has received a lesser primary education (through no fault of one’s own) will be able to compete within an academically competitive environment such as that which exists within TJ with someone who has received a top-notch primary education. Even if both students are equally intellectually capable, the latter student obviously has a significant advantage over the former student, who has to play a lot of catch-up just to try to get on par. It is absolutely not TJ’s role to provide this extra primary education, and it is extremely detrimental to the mission of TJ if TJ is forced to cater to such lower standards. The FCPS and TJ administrations need to be freed from the political pressures placed upon them to try to make TJ appear to be something it is not, because otherwise, the ones who will suffer the most are future TJ students, and they deserve the amazing TJ environment and education to which we were entitled.
Evan Crawford, TJ '02, Yale College Class of 2006 evan.crawford AT yale.edu 2003-10-24
Here is a proposed plan: take out the race, gender, etc. on the test. Just put your name. They don't even need to know the school, because even then the admission board will use that to determine who gets into TJ. It should be a pure knowledge test, (the mutliple choice part) and a writing section (the esays) Yea diversity is nice in a lot of ways but in this case if your trying to have magnet school your going to defeat the purpose by trying to have diversity. It sorta goes along with the prep course they now offer, if you can't get in on your knowledge that you have then you really don't belong there
Erin 2003-10-21
If a Caucasian student has a better score on the test, better GPA, and better credentials than an African-American student, the Caucasian student better be selected.
anonoymosur 2003-10-12
This proposal spoken of in this letter here was made up in Spring of 2001.... it was rejected shortly thereafter, and it has now been over two school years since.... don't you think it's time to move on from arguing over why a policy that didn't happen shouldn't happen? To whoever runs this site, I'd advise switching to the more relevant current topics (the Lloyd Cohen issue, for example). Although from my very little experience with Statistics gained from AP Statistics, I've already found numerous flaws with his methods, it's still a relevant issue, much more so than a 2.5 year old proposal that failed.
Sam Leven 2003-10-07
People should be accepted to TJHSST because of there academic abilities and should not be seperated into different ethnic groups. No one race should be given special treatment. Each student selected should be considered for their individual abilities and shouldn't be labeled.
Ellen 2003-09-13
Domenech and Castro just can't wait to change admissions process at TJ, always making girlish complaints about the number of the students of their own race getting into TJ. Same thing with minority parents and such. Stop complaining about the process. The admissions is already bent enough to admit more minority students. Maybe they should start doing something about their children's education. Did anyone read the Aug. 9th article on Washington Post Metro section, about Chairman Castro of the school board? I was completely exasperated by the bias in the article. In addition to ethnically biased School system leadership, we've got a socio-politically biased major media concern in the region. Oh, and in addition, the number of addmitted students were inflated into 450, without any corresponding improvements or expansions in equipment or funding. (the only exception being fixing the roofing, but that's remedial against the formerly notoriously leaky roof)
Men Young Lee mlee1 AT tjhsst.edu 2003-08-18
although i fully support equality at jefferson, it is disapointing that the school is lowering its standards in order to promote it. having hispanic background, it is highly offensive that tj is becoming a school that grants handicaps instead of promoting determination and hard work. furthermore, at all of my orientations at tj, i have found a very diverse student body who came in to being at the school through perserverence.
asd mssurdnce AT yahoo.com 2003-08-06
First of all,I completely disagree w/ this decision to make it easier for the free & reduced lunch peole who took the test to make it in. What about the people who score high on the test and don't make it because of the free/reduced lunch... I know i sound completely biased but I am going to be taking the test and I DON'T have free/reduced lunch but i don't want it to block my way from getting in.
Nikhi 2003-08-05
Why should those who deserve to get into TJ be replaced by those who don't? Is that fair?
Rick 2003-06-24
It is obviously not fair for minorities to get a higher "starting seat" than any other people. In fact, this act is favoring some races over others. The TJ admission process should not be changed!
anonymous 2003-06-24
Overall, I am very disappointed with the responses to this issue. I graduated in 2001, right when the minority attendance at TJ started to decrease. I can't imagine why anyone would want to learn in intelectual community devoid of diversity. The absence of many racial groups leads to racial insensitivity and ignorance. The issue should be in the manner this racial diversity is achieved not whether or not it is neccesary at all. In the end, everyone that stays at TJ and graduates at the end of four years is equally deserving of thier place at the school.
Kamalah Chang kamalah AT caltech.edu 2003-05-26
Under the mistaken impression that I would have the opportunity to present my results to the students at TJ I planned to have some fun and demonstrate the inferential statistics using techniques that might be more intuitively appealing than the summary results spit out by a stats program modeling a Probit regression. The two techniques I had in mind were to model the results on a hypergeometric distribution and a binomial distribution. In truth I think little turns on the inferential statistics. The case for the existence of racial discrimination in admissions is a slam dunk independent of this stuff. The inferential statistics are little more than icing on the cake at the end of the meal. That said, here is the analysis for all those who enjoy this sort of thing. Hypergeometric: Many readers will be familiar with the sort of problem that run like this, "an urn has 3 blue balls and 5 black balls what is the probability that if you randomly grab three ball that at least two of them will be ....?" These kind of problems rest on a “hypergeometric distribution.” Our problem in trying to determine the likelihood that ten out the elven (or more) of the African American applicants in the 800 pool would be offered admissions had race not been taken into account is a similar sort of problem. The hypergeometric is not strictly appropriate to solve this problem and should be understood as a reasonable approximation. The hypergeometric only strictly applies when every possible observation is equally likely. In our case those near the top of the index were much more likely to be admitted than those further down the list, moreover the African American students were not randomly distributed among the group of 791. So I divided the 791 applicants into two groups those whose index was in the top 461 and those in the bottom 330. The four African American kids in the first group have a rank total that is 86 spots worse than random. The seven kids in the second group have a rank total 85 spots better than random. So, on balance the 461 mark is an "unbiased" dividing line for the African American kids. By my count there were 361 admitted from the first group, and 88 from the second. So figuring out the result for a hypergeometric is just a matter of counting. The numerator consists of three parts, the denominator of one. The deominator should be [461!/(361!x100!)][330!/(88!x242!)] The three parts of the numerator to be added together are: (1) the number of different ways of getting all four of the African American kids in the first group admitted, and six out of seven of the second group; (2)all four kids of the first group and all seven of the second as well; and (3) three out of the four African American kids in the first group and all seven of the second. Adding those numbers together gives you all the combinations at, equivalent to, and beyond the result that we observe. (1) is [457!/(357!x100!)][323!/(82!x241!)][7] (2) is [457!/(357!x100!)][323!/(81!x242!)] (3) is [457!/(358!x99!)][4][323!/(81!x242!)] Microsoft Excel will do all the calculations of the hypergeometric in its “stats” package. 1. 4 of 4 blacks of the 361 of the first 461 = .374671 2. 3 of 4 blacks of the 361 of the first 461 = .41826987 3. 6 of 7 blacks of the 88 of the last 330 = .001653532 4. 7 of 7 blacks of the 88 of the last 330 = .00008004 So the three probabilities are: (.374671)(.00165352) =.0006195 (.374671)(.00008004) = .00002999 and (.41826987)(.00008004) = .000033478 for a total of .000692968 That is the probability (under this model) that just by chance at least 10 of the 11 African American kids would have been accepted. In addition I mimicked the hypergeometric by a binomial distribution. They are strictly appropriate only to problems that involve “independent trial events,” things like spins of the roulette wheel, rolls of the dice, flips of a coin. Binomial distributions are easier to work with and are a fair approximation to the hypergeometric. They took 361 out of the first 461 or .783. They took 88 out of the next 330 or .267. The probability of getting 4 out of 4 in the first group and 6 out of 7 in the second group (* means raise to a power). is (.783)*4(.267)*6(.733)(7) = .00069874. The probability of getting 4 out of 4 in the first group and 7 out of 7 in the second is (.783)*4(.267)*7 = .00003636. The probability of getting 3 out of 4 in the first group and 7 out of 7 in the second is 4(.783)*3(.217)(.267)*7 = .00004. So the total in that end of the tail is .00077510 This is very close to the hypergeometric result of of .000692968. We can also use the hypergeometric distribution to look at my speculation about the Native Americans. Some people have expressed some skepticism about my hypothesis of a “race police.” Let me try to provide some analytical, statistical support for the hypothesis. First, there is a long and well established history in this and other countries of people trying to pass themselves off as being of a different ethnicity than others would ascribe to them when there is some advantage to doing so. While in the past in this country it was often African-Americans "passing," now it is usually whites claiming to be members of some "minority" group. There is an equally long history of people seeking to expose and punish such attempts. So this is hardly a hypothesis drawn out of thin air and it should hardly be a shocking suggestion that it might be taking place close to home. Now consider the statistics. The average Index rank of the three self-declared native-Americans was 318--halfway down the list of the top 636 on the index. If their chances of being admitted were on average equal to any of those 636, then given that 418 of that group were admitted or 65.7%, the likelihood that just by chance all three would be rejected is less than 4%. This of course does not take into account that these are putative native-Americans, a group thought of as a disadvantaged minority, that would normally have a thumb placed on the scale in their favor in a system that engaged in such discrimination as I have established exists at TJ. Now let me add to this mix another observation that I missed the significance of when I first examined the data and so does not appear in the paper. There was only one applicant ranked in the top 122 who was rejected, #95 (see the table near the back of the paper for his credentials). What was his ethnicity? Hispanic! Now given that Hispanics were one of the two explicitly recognized minorities in the admissions process how does one explain this wildly anomalous result? It is fully consistent with my hypothesis that a kind of race police was operating in the admissions regime, a race police that did not merely ignore the putative self-designation of race of the applicant, but actually punished candidates who ascribed to themselves ethnicities that were not credited by the committee members. But this is only a hypothesis. I think there is strong evidence for it, but who knows? Of course all such speculation of abuse of authority would be sharply undercut if ethnicity and all personal identification of applicants were removed from the process.
Lloyd Cohen LCohen2 AT gmu.edu 2003-05-12
I never intended to make such a hard time of the admitting of the unintentioned. It's when I realized that the underside of the problem could be revealed through imminence, as the fallen angel in the ancient tale of Siphiccles did, that such a revelation came that I could not but feel unturned but less burdened. That is why in regard to this policy that "of fruitfulness be here undone, shall it be here that gangrene shall be on our society, the only cure amputation until only what is left is pure." That of course is not to be taken so literaly or unilaterally but it is simply a comment that seemed appropriate in view of the views held by the clashing. I am underestimating perhaps the plurality of the problem. I have always ascribed to the goals set forth in the books of Redenburg (for those not familiar, I pity your ignorance. Please do yourself a favor and read man's gift to man. I am of course being unnecessarily haughty but such is such and ya-de, ya-de, yo). Remember the case of the prisoner who then released returned only to profess his guilt being found "uninnoccent". Why should such not be here and there and everywhere? I do not know so as to that please answer it yourself.
Ryan ryanisC001 AT aol.com 2003-04-29
It is not TJ to be at fault for not having enough minorities selected to join the school. TJ judges students only on their academic ability.
John 2003-04-24
This website is an insult to all of the hardworking African-American TJ freshmen. I'd like to see Mr. Cohen mention my 4.0 GPA in his paper. All of the people who respond do not have all of the facts. We know the new admissions process was proposed; it was not necessarily carried out in the way you think. The current TJ freshmen are just as qualified, if not more qualified for TJ. How many African-American students were accepted for the Class of 2007? 3. I am proud to be a TJ student and no one can take that away from me. *to the people who run the website: try not to change the spelling of my words this time.*
anonymous 2003-04-22
The press is reporting that of 420 students selected for next year's TJ freshmen class, three are African American and 13 are Hispanic. The same admissions process was involved as last year, so I assume that these will provide additional "data points" to augment Dr. Cohen's analysis. Although in aggregate they still do not provide a minimum statistically significant number from which to derive meaningful (as opposed to annecdotal) conclusions, it strains credulity to imagine that Dr. Cohen's central theses will be further supported by this data.
Parent of two TJ alums na AT na.com 2003-04-16
I for one am thoroughly disgusted at the efforts of the Fairfax County School Board and Superintendent Daniel Domenech to artificially inflate the numbers of minority students at Jefferson. Apparently they no longer remember the intellectual mission of our school. Affirmative action is nothing more than a half-hearted and futile attempt to correct the wrongs of past generations. Unfortunately, despite the best intentions of those in charge, in practice its unfair discrimination damages future generations. Students by default want to learn, want to get an education, and want to better themselves; however, their environment -- their family, their peers -- must be supportive of this. The root of the problem, therefore, is not in the Jefferson admissions process but in the family and peers of a student. Our school, increasingly politicized after the arrival of Principal Elizabeth Lodal, is a sad example of how our nation has stooped to try and "correct" past generational wrongs.
Victor Andrei vandrei AT lan.tjhsst.edu 2003-04-15
Mr. Boltuck, You make a thoughtful argument sir, that I respect. But, as a self-identitifed outsider, you must acknowledge you don't necissarily have a full grasp on the entire scope of the situation at jefferson, in regards to Matt Wansley's leadership and the administration. There are questions that neither the TjToday nor Washington Post brought up.I agree that i didn't like TjToday's focus on possible procedural flaws on Wansley's part. However, I would caution you against your implications of martyrdom or scapegoating. I personally would rather see this board steered towards less personal debate on Cohen or Wansley, who quite frankly I don't feel warrant so much attention. I agree with the poster who recently posted anonymosly who entreated some real debate on race and race aware admissions in America. But just know, Mr. Boltuck, that there is much, much more to the situation at jefferson, and the Post made it seem like a rather cut and dry issue of free speech, which I don't believe it to be
JacksonBrown 2003-04-08
It is very entertaining to me that everyone is under the assumption that TJHSST has made its own admissions policy. The school has NOTHING to do with admissions. Every year about 3000 8th graders across northern Virginia take an admittance exam. The top 800 are ranked. Then a committee of people NOT ASSOCIATED WITH TJHSST look over applications and recommendations. From there they make a judgement on who should be offered admission and who should not. They take scores, recommendations, aptitude, activities, and accomplishments into consideration. Not one person on the staff of TJHSST is involved in this process. The first time anyone on the TJ staff comes into contact with the new freshmen is during the spring before their freshman year AFTER they have been admitted. Therefore, if anyone wants to effect change at TJ, it seems that the vast majority of the respondants are looking in the wrong direction. Also, as test for "test scores" - you are looking at the performance of 3000 kids on one day in December of their 8th grade year......how many times do high school juniors and seniors take the SAT to achieve the desired score?? Other studies have also shown that attending TJHSST has HURT some students chances of getting into the "Ivies" as they are put into a separate pool of consideration than most "regular" public school kids. So, TJ is NOT at fault for its admissions policy, Mrs. Lodal is not at fault for the admissions policy. Mrs. Lodal IS the principal at TJ and has the right to invite or uninvite ANY speaker she so chooses. The student involved (Wansley) knew the proper format to invite a speaker, he chose to circumvent it. I have wasted enough time and energy on this topic here and elsewhere. It is over as far as I am concerned. It is time to move on.
anonymous n/a 2003-04-08
Ahh, so doctor Cohen, there is now a vast left-wing conspiracy to withold admission from Native Americans? Or are the omnipotent and evil "they" punishing these youngsters Give me a break. I agree we could use some real intellectual discussion about race in America and how that applies to admissions. I think both sides of the argument could learn alot. But can we cut this paranoid conspiracy theory bullshit? Dr. Cohen, with all due respect, get a life. you only weaken the case for those against race conscious admissions by coming as a knee-jerk, anti establishment kook.
anonymous 2003-04-06
Sorry, I clicked "submit" on my last response before I had refined it. One last thought- weren't conspiracy theories and knee-jerk distrust of authority the trademark of the liberal left? I find it ironic that some fellow members of the right have lapsed into this false sense of victimization. In my eyes, Cohen is a Sharpton for the right. Now let's hear some intelligent argument. I personally find myself most in favor of some sort of economicically aware system of admissions. Racial diversity on campuses across the country would only decrease slightly, and I think we would hit at the true root of the problem. We live in a segregated society to this day, only now it's not by race, it's by money. Now, that still has some racial implications, but I think the discrepancy comes from money. And we all know the single greatest correlant found to SAt scores is parental income. So, spare me the best and brightest BS, I beleive an inner city kid from Philly, or a rural kid from the sticks of Alabama with 1400s have shown greater aptitude than some Great Falls kid kid with a 1510, who's parents are ivy leauge grads. I don't think this is punishing the Great Falls kid, it's only asking him to do the same amount with what he's been given as the others.
anonymous 2003-04-06
Here's my "outside" view (from Bethesda) of the controversy surrounding Prof. Cohen's paper and the prohibition on him presenting his work at TJHS -- based only on a bit of internet research with no axe to grind (sorry about the length; this was originally posted with slight variations on a listserv among parents of students in the Pyle-Whitman cluster in Bethesda): This incident is instructive in several respects and challenges us to confront what free speech really means. If the speech is uncontroversial and causes no significant dissonance, especially to the majority, then it needs no Constitutional protection -- even in tyrannies, such speech occurs all the time. But freedom and democracy are both messy constructs that often test our tolerance and result in our exposure to hurtful ideas held by others. When speech is a right, the government (including its schools) cannot protect us from being hurt by the expression of ideas. We simply have to avoid being thin-skinned. That's part of what it takes to thrive in a truly free society. The recent Washington Post article noted makes clear that the presentation by Professor Cohen was prohibited by the school principal for content-based reasons -- reasons that are thus impermissible when motivating a state-agent to prior censorship of speech. The principal, Elizabeth Lodal, indicated she couldn't allow such a speaker because by doing so "a group of [Jefferson's] students would be demeaned". She also expressed her belief that Professor Cohen's article "potentially violates the privacy of our students, which greatly distresses me . . ." I don't question Principal Lodal's sincerity, but she appears to be factually wrong on these two points, and moreover, neither content-based concern justifies infringing free speech by engaging in prior restraint. I read Prof. Cohen's article, and although his analytical conclusions can be both challenged and defended (and should be through open debate), he does not seek to demean anyone. If someone's feelings are hurt, this is at most a collateral effect of an analysis that examines a valid public policy issue and attempts to achieve greater transparancy in how the admissions system works at TJHS. The admissions system at an exclusive public high school is an act of government and any concerned citizen should be entitled to examine it in the full light of day and express his or her opinion freely. Such a system works to allocate scarce government benefits determining who receives them and who does not. Certainly it is fair game for public study and comment. Second, Principal Lodal's concern about the privacy of a group of her students is misdirected at Professor Cohen. He exercised his rights under the Virginia Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to seek data from the Fairfax County School Board (FCSB). These data do not explicitly identify the ranking of individual applicants to TJHS, though they appear to arguably disclose some personal information indirrectly. For instance, of the handful of qualifying black applicants, one could determine that none had a ranking higher than a certain level. If the FCSB's release of these data into the public domain in response to Professor Cohen's request violated a protected privacy right under the FOIA (as reflected in a statutory exemption), then Principal Lodal should direct her distress at the FCSB rather than Professor Cohen. Once the data were released, however, Professor Cohen's use of those data to conduct a study was perfectly proper as they were in fact public data, and his article cannot account for violating anyone's privacy. If, on the other hand, Principal Lodal believes that the information-access rights established under the Virginia FOIA are overly expansive and do not adequately protect what she believes should be a right to privacy, then she should direct her distress at the Virginia State Legislature for adopting the FOIA. I cannot see how in either event Professor Cohen is responsible for violating anyone's privacy. Moreover, even if he has done so, she (or those who's right to privacy has been allegedly violated) should establish this through legal process rather than prior restraint on speech. Much discussion in the TJHS student newspaper about this incident focuses, incorrectly in my view, on the student-body president's procedural gaffes in attempting to arrange a forum for Professor Cohen to present his ideas. For instance, in an editorial the paper argues that: "According to administrative sources, SGA president Matt Wansley violated the good faith of his advisers, bypassing them and claiming to secure permission for the speaker from Assistant Principal John Colegrove before approaching Student Activities Coordinator Rich Slivoskey about scheduling the optional eighth period assembly at which Cohen would speak. Wansley is not oblivious to accepted protocol for scheduling speakers. He knows that the first step is acquiring your faculty sponsor's permission, in this case from John Struck. After that has been obtained, the next step would be to get approval from an administrator, in this case Director of Student Activities Mike McGurk. Once all the necessary permissions have been granted, the final step would be to consult Slivoskey for scheduling considerations." This focus is a mere pretext and diversion, seeking to cast blame on a student leader who tried to arrange a speaker and apparently spoke to an administrator in the wrong sequence given some implicit or explicit "protocol". That it is a pretext is clear from Principal Lodal's express explanation of why she cancelled the presentation in which she cites content-based concerns rather than procedural flaws. Based on the school paper's account above, so many approvals are required before students can hear a speaker that one wonders if the procedure exists solely to discourage or censor speech.
Richard Boltuck Rboltuck AT ix.netcom.com 2003-04-05
Dr. Cohen, you just said "I also list the ranks of five lower ranking admittees, who therefore clearly can not be self-identified as African American." Unfortunately, many of the readers of your paper, on their first read-through, made the exact same mistake young Mr. Miller did.You present your hypothesis, then present us with 5 high ranking youngesters who did not receive admission and the 5 relatively low ranking youngsters who did obtain letters of admission. To a careless reader, or a reader eager to find fault with the system, this is a trap. The implication is that the 5 who were not admitted were white and the other 5 black. I'm not going to get into the argument as to whether this was an intentionally misleading section of your paper, because I have my opinions on the matter, but who truly can know a man's mind and heart besides he himself? I have never met you, nor even laid eyes upon you, so I will not pass this judgment. I'm a sophomore at Jefferson, so I haven't had the chance to meet either of your children. So,for the sake of argument, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not intentionally mislead your readers. Then, I wonder, who is to blame for this mix up, which I have heard quoted time and time again? Numerically, of course, there isn't a whole lot of difference between 716 and 799, so this discrepancy doesn't really attack your position nor support the position of your detractors. But it does present an interesting question...Are the self-proclaimed "intellectuals", including your young disciple Mr. Miller,who are so loathful of our "anti-intellecutal" school system, perhaps not as adept at critical reading as their rhetoric would lead us to believe? How could so many of them fall victim to the same error in analysis that you yourself said was "clearly" portrayed? To put it bluntly, I think it was poorly written, but then again I am a 10th grader critiquing a man with a doctorate, perhaps as I age and obtain vasts amounts of education I will obtain the maturity sufficient to truly appreciate you work of research. But for the time being, at least, it seems poorly written.
anonymous anonymous AT aol.com 2003-04-05
I take some exception to "Scoots" assertion that I misled anyone as to the ethnic identity of #799. In my paper (available for everyone to read) I say clearly that the lowest ranked (on the index) African American to be admitted in the current freshman class was #716. I also list the ranks of five lower ranking admittees, who therefore clearly can not be self-identified as African American. In addition, as far as I know I am the only one who has obtained the data pursuant to a FOIA request and I have made the data available to anyone who wants to see it. So I think it a little unfair to suggest I have misled anyone.
Lloyd Cohen lcohen2 AT gmu.edu 2003-04-04
As a member of one of the original classes at TJHSST, I'm ashamed to read some of the responses here. Diversity should be everyone's goal, and should absolutely be incorporated into the admissions process. To read about who "deserves" to get in is laughable. Rankings are the result of arbitrary methods. Why not keep the admissions process blind? Think about this: how would everyone react if in a few years the entire class was Asian due to a race blind admissions process? I don't think it would be difficult to fill the entire class with Asians, with every last student fully "deserving". As far as helping minorities earlier in their education, why not help them throughout their education? Who says the line has to be drawn at the TJ admissions process? TJ needs qualified minorities, colleges need qualified minorities, and corporate America needs qualified minorities. So offer the opportunities throughout, and stop drawing the line at TJ because you can't see the big picture or are too concerned to get your own child or self into the school. To minority students at TJ: please feel proud of your accomplishements and don't let anyone try to force you to doubt yourself. Wealthy people and those of higher socioeconomic status have gotten preferential treatment and will continue to get preferential treatment in nearly everything they aspire for, and no one asks them to apologize.
'92 grad 2003-04-04
In addition to my forthcoming article,--coming out within the week--anyone who wants to examine my data themselves may do so. I am prepared to send it to whomever asks, or the moderator of this website could post it. By the way, let me ratchet up the debate a bit with another aspect of the admissions scandal. In the paper I mention a curious fact. There were three applicants in the pool of 802 listed as native americans. Their index ranks were: 258, 266, and 431. None were offered admission to TJ. In addition, something I didn't mention in the paper, but should have, is the ethnicity of the highest ranked person on the index to be rejected. #95 was rejected and is listed as .... hispanic. What is going on here? It is my belief that the race police are in operation in the admissions regime at TJ. "They" are deciding whether you are accurate in the ethnicity you ascribe for yourself and not merely will they ignore your race if they disagree with the one you ascribe to yourself, they will punish you for claiming an ethnicity they do not believe is accurate!
Lloyd Cohen lcohen2 AT gmu.edu 2003-04-02
If you think that governmental discrimination against whites at society's expense stops at the high school & college admissions levels, you'll be in for a very unpleasant surprise to see how NASA opportunistically misbehaves through its hiring and contracting-related discrimination against caucasians: http://www.SpaceProjects.com/minority-contracts Hopefully this will be a clickable link to that expose: http://www.SpaceProjects.com/minority-contracts Has NASA gone anywhere but in circles for decades? It's little more than a jobs program, with affirmative action gone awry. The Russians can do just about anything NASA can and up to 30 times more cheaply, whether it's launching tourists like Dennis Tito into space or operating a space station that competed against NASA's wasteful one. Meanwhile the British will soon be able to boast something similar with its Beagle 2 mission to Mars: more for less. And the Chinese are about to achieve humans-in-space tasks at a tiny fraction of what NASA has deceived taxpayers into thinking we must pay. None of NASA's competitors have quotas, though... But they all share a dedication to actually getting something done instead of trying to be politically correct about everything. Ironically, the lack of quotas (overseas) will eventually enable humans of all species to colonize the cosmos and unify against the common hardships of the unknown, as fellow Earthlings instead of Jesse Jackson-inflamed enemies.
Rich Robins, Esq. ProjectOpenEyes AT SpaceProjects.com 2003-04-02
Just a quick word- Andy, what you said was dead wrong, and you know it, and you haven't had the decency to retract it yet. Since I know you and you are my friend, I beleive you were just misled by Cohen and in turn misled this message board.For anyone who cares to actually look at the data, #799 was not black, as Andy insinuated. Statistically speaking, he was most likely white. And it shouldn't matter either way, because he is more than a number.The fact that a white #799 made it in proves the point that there is more to the 800 pool than just rank. Sure, maybe the 120some guy had a higher rank, but who knows what extra qualities 799 had? You can talk in moral terms about the use of race in admissions all you want; but get rid of this assumption that #555 is better than #556. I doubt that any amount of argument will change your minds on the merits of race-based admissions; however, if I can elucidate one thing it would be this: it's naive and ill-informed to use these numbers, regardless of their relation to race, as some sort of ultra-accurate scale of merit. Let me re-iterate, it is foolish to beleive that #125 is invariably a superior candidate to #177. Any seniors or juniors, or anyone who has gone through the college process for that matter, should have a sympathy for the limits of standardized testing. I know fools with 1500s and people I know to be quite intelligent with 1400s. Applicants are people, not numbers. For all the talk on intellectual discussion, all I really see on this message board is a bunch of like-minded individuals patting each other on the back and feeding off one another, I see no voice of dissent. That this contraversial issue begets such a one sided debate says something. You all don't want to hear debate; you want to hear echoes of your own thoughts in other's writing. No doubt, this post will be ripped apart not long after it is written. Enjoy the feast.
Scoots dontcontactme AT dontcontactme.com 2003-04-02
Andy: There's more to an individual than just numbers. As a TJ alumnus (class of '02), I knew a white student who applied at the same time I did with perfect grades and more than high enough test scores to be accepted. He also had no problem openly expressing his hatred toward certain other 8th grade classmates, and emotional issues like this were bound to show up on his teacher recommendations; in the end, no matter how high his rank may have been, he wasn't accepted. I'm not defending the fact that person 799 got accepted, or suggesting that Lodal's ideas concerning Dr. Cohen's paper or admissions in general are anything short of mind-numbingly insane, but you should remember that there can be plenty of reasons to reject someone whose numbers seem outstanding.
anonymous 2003-03-28
Luke - Many people responding here are alums, but that doesn't mean we're overly attached to high school. Most of us look back fondly at TJ, and want future classes to have the same positive experience that we did. This debate is important to the success of future classes and of TJ itself.
. . 2003-03-20
One thing not given any attention so far is the logistics of adding 120 new students over 4 years. As any poor junior can attest to, the parking situation is inadequate at best. The nearby Home Depot, church, and elementary school routinely complain about students taking spaces. Also, the popular tech labs are already grossly overpopulated. For biology and computer science, admittance into the tech lab is becoming more and more of a crap shoot. The school's resources will be stretched thinner than it already is. And because of the anti-intellectual Fairfax County School Board, TJ will never get any additional funding to compensate. I hope everybody reads the new study on 2006 admissions data done by Lloyd Cohen, a George Mason University law professor. His thesis is that the admissions policy and the ultimate goal of the FCSB is to boost the numbers of black students in TJ. His supports are mathematical analysies of the test scores, GPAs, and 800-pool ranks of all the candidates who made first cut. This report has had a recent polarizing effect in student government and the student body. While many find it eye-opening and validating their own suspicions about the admissions policy, others reject his calculations. A common criticism (which I do agree with) is that after one year he does not have nearly enough data for conclusive evidence. However, the most compelling arguement he presents to me is the fact that a candidate with a 4.0 GPA, 88% verbal ranking, 97% math ranking, and ranked 95 in the 800 candidate pool was REJECTED, while another student was ACCEPTED with a 3.58 GPA, 62% verbal ranking, 76% math ranking, and an 800 pool rank of 799. Take a guess as to the ethnicity of each student. I have enormous pride in my school and would like to see it prosper for decades after I graduate. It pains me to see its prestige tarnished and its student body weakened. However, I am guessing that it is infinitely more painful for Mr. 799, who has to live with the fact that he got in because the color of his skin buys Mr. Domenich reelection.
Andy Miller, Class of 2003 aznrower AT hotmail.com 2003-03-18
Have you ever wondered why, at your age, you're still involved with high school? My younger sister is exactly like this... Works at the school, wears school apparel, friends are high school students, etc. It seems kind of strange to me, like... she doesn't want to leave high school.. or never really left.. mentally. How many of you have a real reason (kids, job) to be worried about this?
Luke Wright lwright AT amgen.com 2003-03-07
so basically because 'there aren't enough' black or hispanic people the admission criteria need to change? that's fucked up. but everyone accepts this fact on the college level. it's easier for blacks and hispanics to get into college. that's a fact. and it's sad and disappointing.
no one mattsix AT hotmail.com 2003-03-04
I definitely think that this new program is completely discriminatory against people who DESERVE to get in TJ. Why can't we keep the admissions blind? Doesn't that just make the most sense? Let in the MOST qualified people, regardless of race. I can't believe people even TRY to say that TJ has no minorities. While there are many Caucasian people, there are also MANY people of Asian background as well as many people of Middle Eastern background. Perhaps one could say that there aren't enough Hispanics or African Americans but thats their problem! Instead of screwing people in high school and for college when it really matters, maybe they should try interesting kids in middle schools to apply as well as generally motivating and teaching kids while they're in elementary school? Lodal is ruining our school and I think it's clear by now that Domenech's got somethin wrong upstairs. Stop the insanity people!!!
Emily ?? 2003-02-28
I am a black student at TJ; however, I do not support the Superintendent's Propsed Changes. If the program was enforced, racial tension would be present. As a student, I often find myself feeling inferior to other students because of this website!! I often find myself wondering if I really got into TJHSST based on my academic achievement; although I am doing very well, the feeling is still present. I believe that no minority student should have to be put into my sutuation.
anonymous 2003-02-26
What's "inside" should matter, period. Justice (fairness?) SHOULD be BLIND. (hey, my humble opinion) "Magnet school?" Magnetism (and gravity) don't discriminate.. You WILL be pulled in, IF you've got what it wants/takes. Schools are for LEARNING, not for teaching.. Let all those that would learn, be admitted purely on their merits. (Whatever they may be) Superintendent Daniel Domenechs, what's your future for Jefferson?
ancora imparo, Paul (Student from that other century) n82rboy AT yahoo.com 2003-02-11
I go to TJ, and everyone here is asian, I am not though. We have plenty of minorities. Power to the people!!
Joe a student 2003-02-03
As a student of Thomas Jefferson, I can tell you that the student body will not support, and will very actively fight any sort of program that admits people to the school on any basis other than academic achievement. The positive learning environment created by TJ is not based on race or creed, but a universal commitment to excellence, in academics, sports, the arts, and everything that we do. The placement of students of races that are underrepresented at TJ is not a problem or threat. The placement of students who are underqualified, or less qualified than more deserving students is. The aim of TJ is to be the best that it can be, not to have a perfect proportion of races. No matter how they veil this issue, how is it not a disguised, renamed version of affirmative action? To solve the problem of underrepresented minorities, provide a better elementary and middle school education to those minorities, so that they are qualified to go to TJ when the time comes. Placing them at TJ unqualifed won't solve any problems.
Trevor Dobson (class of '04) tgd2041 AT yahoo.com 2003-01-05
let us face it. tj is not a school for rich white kids. it's a school for middle class families seeking the status that comes with tj, aka, "automagic admission to uva, great shot at the ivies." rich families will send their kids to Madeira or Georgetown Day. No need to cry a tear on their behalf if their child doesn't make it into tj, despite all the test prep six hundred dollars plus can purchase. tj doesn't need facial diversity. tj needs socioeconomic diversity. enough with the grasping middle class! up with the working lower class. tj is a public school, after all. as tj was (is?) the elitism driven by middle class desperation to advance social station resulted in: a student in my bio class proposing a eugenics program for "poor people, because they're stupid." Everybody thought it was a good idea. and they say the tj students will rule the world someday. love, Megan
Megan maroon_smurf83 AT hotmail.com 2002-12-16
Everyone has their own diverse set of ideas. So why would it matter what race you are?
Jefferson student 2002-12-13
Wait a second. Let me look over this. Isn't this just ruining the point of Thomas Jefferson? T.J. is a "magnet" school and what a magnet school does is attract the most talented students in an area to that school. What Dr. Domenech is trying to do here is make it so that not the most academically qualified students will gain admission to Thomas Jefferson, but the students who have the most selective qualifications will gain admission to Jefferson. If this plan is taken into affect there will be no winners, only losers. Those who were qualified for Jefferson and were not accepted will lose. Those that got in with the new plan will not be able to handle the curriculum at T.J. and will not be successful. They of course will also be losers. There is no advantage to this new plan.
Jesse a student at Jefferson 2002-11-09
I have been a student in Fairfax county's gifted and talented program for 5 years (Springfield Estates Elm, Kilmer Md.). I feel that this program has made a greater impact on my life than anything else. Not only have I had outstanding opportunities, and a great academic experience, but I have also felt at home. The environment in gt and magnet schools is extremely different from that of standard public school. At TJ, this environment is created by the students that attend. They are of like mind, and like abilities. By accepting this proposal, we run the risk of altering this climate. Students in a school for specific abilities should be selected only by their abilities. Residency, family income, and race should not be factors.
Katie atomicspeed AT hotmail.com 2002-11-06
Thomas Jefferson should be an accurate representation of the intellectual community, not an accurate sampling of the public education system. There is not one school in all of FCPS that matches the statistical layout of FCPS ethnic makeup, and to try to force an intellectual center to do so is not only ridiculous, it is also impossible. TJ admits students based on their ability to do well at TJ, and if the minority students who apply are not up to that standard, FCPS should urge more gifted and talented minorities to apply, not lower the bar just so that a lesser-qualified group of individuals take advantage of the resources TJ has to offer. Oh wait. Domenech cut TJ funding so that we don\'t have any resources anymore. Sigh.
Anon Anon 2002-11-05
As a current TJ student, I have found that the quota does not match very well the proportions of students coming in. For example, I know that Frost had roughly 4 times the amount in its quota. As for diversity, I think that there is no problem with that, as I see many people who are not caucasian all over the school. Finally, if you can't get in by yourself, then you will be less likely to succeed there.
Anon Anon 2002-10-20
Minorities that less qualified are being accepted at the expense of more qualified people. It\'s reverse racism. The problem is this: More white and asian people have more resources behind them at an early age that give them the opportunities to expand their intellectual side. Many minorities don\'t have this chance, however it does not give them any right to take greater precedent over those who happened to be born into greater opportunity. The problem should not be solved at the high school or college level, it needs to be solved at the base level, in the elementary schools, so everyone is on the same level from the beginning. Do not try to skew the results later on to match a artificial \"norm.\"
Anon 2002-10-15
I support the idea of more diversity at Jefferson, however the proposals presented are not acceptable. Instead of taking steps to increase the number of minority students applying (which would lead to a small but noticable increase in minority admittance), or trying to generate more minority students that can actually get in through the original admittance project, the proposed system simply lowers the bar. This school acheives its reputation and status from having such a high expectation of students applying. By lowering the scores required to get in, Jefferson will no longer be as exuisite a mecca of intelligence that it is today. Secondly, the method that is proposed is a blow to the dignity of the very minority groups that it tries to atrract. By lowering the standards to "accomodate for minorities", it is essentially saying that minorities are not as smart as Caucasians. This statement may or may not be true, but it is an insult nonetheless. Lastly, if someone needs the bar lowered to simply get in to Jefferson, then they don't belong at this school. The standards are the way they are for a reason. The small percentage of minority students at TJ does not show a problem with the admittance process, but rather a sad state of affairs in the educational system. If there were better schools an more teachers at locations with larger concentrations of minority population, we would undoubtedly see the percentage of those groups at TJ become considerably larger. We should not lower our standards or destroy the educational excellence of Thomas Jefferson to accomodate Lodal's bleeding-heart proposal.
David 2002-10-07
This new proposal does not stand for what America's Consitution stands for. By leting any students on free or reduced lunch into TJ this proposal is unfair to all students not on the free or reduced lunch program. Also money has nothing to do with getting into TJ.By proposing this are we making a stereotype of less foruante famlies. Why can't such a great school just be left alone while other schools could use the effort being put into bringing TJ down?
? ? 2002-10-03
I like the idea, cuz I'm on the free reduced lunch thing and it would help me a lot to go to a good school and help me get in to a better college so I can support my mother and sisters' future. But, yes, I have a huge BUT, then again, if I look at the side of those who aren't on free or reduced lunch, I'd be infuriated to find out I wasn't selected because they chose someone else who had free or reduced lunch. Right now, I'm split half and half. People who are on free or reduced lunch are on it for a reason, so it would be a leg up in life if they went to TJHSST. But then again, those who are worthy should be chosen, not those with a certain label. Arggh, I don't know! lol ~Jen
Jen heheh 2002-09-29
O yea, P.S., I forgot to add, this seems a little like affirmative action, completely biased :0p
Jen heheh 2002-09-29
Why is it so important to have a certain mix of ethnicity? Whoever gets in gets in. Justice is blind.
. . 2002-09-19
As a liberal Democrat, and financially middle class (=poor in Fairfax!) mother of three white children, one of whom got into TJ, I am very concerned about admissions processes that discriminate against anyone. The current proposal will, as noted aptly above. I have worked with many different elementary schools and children of many ethinc and financial backgrounds. One solution that is dramatically under-considered (by taxpayers, parents, legislators, and administrators) is identifying and bringing along children when they're young -- not by excluding others, as is the case with the current minority expansion program for GT centers at elementray schools -- but by EXPANDING the GT programs, centers, and other means of nurturing young minds that both need and deserve it. Our school system routinely fails bright kids by forcing them into the standard Virginia curriculum and by not training teachers well enough to teach both bright kids, and the rest of the spectrum. I'm wondering, too, how many of us have been scorned because we're SMART? I hear it often: "You have bright kids. You don't have a problem!" (Kurt Vonnegut was right!) ... I'm wondering how many bright kids almost hit the skids because they were ignored or scorned or bored or worse. And how many other parents have had to advocate against such forces for their children... of ANY color, race, or economic circumstance.
Anonymous to protect my kids 2002-09-16
I do not support the Superintendent's proposal of reserving certain no of seats to minority groups. I say this as an immigrant myself. There are innumerable opportunities given to minorities in various fields. Why can't they leave atleast one school ? TJ is for the academically challenged students. Are they not many schools for Learning Disabled people ? Then why they cannot have one single school for Academically challenged students ? The admissions should be based on talent at TJHSS. Period. When they can't get through the normal procedure the minorities are being given a reservation quota. What would they do if they do not get required marks ? Would they have a different grading system ? This is totally unfair for the more eligible students. Unfortunately, rules are passed/changed in this country either for political or for earning a good name. While people of every nation have to learn English, for the sake of Latinos everyone has to learn Spanish. It is totally ridiculous.
?????? 2002-09-16
Lodal keeps trying to change TJ for the worse. The theory behind the application process and the higher level of learning is that students who are qualified academically get in. If you are not smart enough to get in then you can not succeed and should not be admitted. Lodal has changed way to many things about TJ and I am glad that this is my last year.
Anon anon 2002-09-12
GOOD INTENTION BUT INAPPROPRIATE METHOD Admission to TJ is considered important because of the competitiveness it brings about by attracting the best talent. I think that it is important to promote the participation in TJ of those who are from a minority and/or are financially underprivileged. However giving them an advantage over more qualified applicants who are wealthy or not from a particular minority background is DEFINITELY NOT THE WAY. This method is unfair discrimination. This will lower the standards that TJ has developed over so many years and thereby also defeats the purpose for which TJ programs are so attractive for students. I suggest resources should be put in to help train and prepare the students for the TJ entrance exam who are from under represented groups or because of their weak financial status. This would help everyone including the group that is being promoted. It is important for any self respecting student to feel that they are part of a program because they are good not because of the special status because of their background. Giving any such advantages to anyone should not be allowed, this new proposal is actually discriminating against people from other backgrounds and better financial standing .
? ? 2002-08-05
It would seem that to allocate as many spaces to a normal middle school as are given to a center middle school (as in the cases of Stone and Rocky Run with 18 spaces each) the more intelligent student would be better off not to push themselves in middle school. If the reward for displaying a greater desire to learn at a young level is to have stiffer competition, perhaps the proposal is more punishment than a field leveller.
nathan clark nathan AT tricopter.com 2002-05-17
In response to the last comment: If you wanna get stereotypical about it, Asians and Middle Eastern young adults are smarter or at least more likely to push themselves to be the best they can be, than whites, hispanics, blacks, etc... If you WENT to TJ, you would've noticed that, without quotas or anything of that nature, there was an unusually high percentage of Asian/Middle Eastern peoples.
Anon. rather not say. 2002-05-16
Why is it wrong that racial statistics about the student body of TJ are not directly proportional to racial statistics of the general population? And what segment of the general population are we comparing to that is considered to have such correct proportions? Other high schools? The DC metro area? How about Fairfax County? The natural distribution of ethnic/racial groups in any locale has never, ever, in the history of the world been evenly "appropriate" on its own. Only through the implementation of quotas and affirmative action has the illusion been created. It should be no surprise that TJ must conform to these ideas too. But I wonder where this originated? Which minorities are behind this initiative? It must be the asians and middle eastern people, they're always making a big ugly stink about these quotas...
Hispanic Alumni NULL 2002-04-15
This new plan is so 'nice' and politically correct on the surface. At its core, however, it is rotten, unreasonable and a mistake. We need to solve the diversity problem at TJ, fine. But what right do we have to allocate that minority students are synonymous with low-income students? The new plan is clearly a form of discrimination. In addition, it could potentially raise problems with speculation in regards to who might have gotten in fully on ability and who were let in because of their 'disadvantages'. Creating, thereby, a new source of tension in the school body. The new plan is almost like a pity gesture, and in its way, the new policy is patronizing and demeaning.
Yi Zhang yzhang2 AT tjhsst.edu 2002-04-11
I strongly disgree with the suggested plan. While it's goal is to create equality of a financial status. Allowing those who are less fortunate to get in does not futher equality but hinders it. You see by showing favor to those from a disadvntaged background who aren't as deserving of getting into TJ as those of a wealthy or normal financial background than it is possible that you are slighting those who come from the wealthy or normal financial background. Also only excepting a certain number of students from each base school is a flawed idea. You see one school might have more qualified applicants than another and by only excepting half or the qualified and half of the less qualified from the other school you are still slighting those who are qualified. Thus I hope you are able to come up with another plan.
Sabir Sultan dr.sabir AT verizon.net 2002-03-22
As a former TJ student, I say without any rancor or ill-feeling towards our school that Thomas Jefferson High School is not and, since its latest incarnation as a magnet school, never has been a place where equality holds sway. The issue of diversity aside, a magnet school is a physical monument to the idea that at least in certain areas, inequality is prevalent in skill and knowledge, if not in capacity for learning. To make entrance more egalitarian academically, even in the name of diversity, is to shift the entire goal of Jefferson. I do not say that this is necessarily good or bad, but it is necessary to understand exactly what the implications of such a move are.
Thomas Iwasawa Halic_love AT hotmail.com 2002-03-22
I think that there should be no numbers only allowing certain numbers of students from each school to be accepted into TJ and the people who get in should be accepted based on test scores and accomplishments, not race, religion, or school.
Jessica Meniyakil74 AT aol.com 2002-03-21
This policy goes against equality in general. Allowing those less fortunate to gain undeserved advancement does not bring us closer to equality. What should be done is there should be more money and effort spent on recruiting qualified applicants from poorer regions of the county. Do not discriminate against people because of their base school. Do not enact quotas to unfairly advance less qualified applicants over those more deserving.
Ben Congleton spam AT be-n.com 2002-03-20